Grinches aren’t born, they’re raised. When Seth Rogen was booked to appear at this year’s Vulture Festival in Los Angeles, it was to have a light chat with his friend and collaborator Sarah Silverman about the holiday season and Santa Inc., the new animated Christmas show they co-star in, which premieres on HBO Max today. Unfortunately, Silverman was under the weather and couldn’t attend, leaving Rogen to reveal himself as a holiday skeptic, tell children Santa isn’t real, and shit on the merits of turkey. Also to have a delightful conversation about where he’s at as an artist, famous person, and collaborator.
Below, you can read an edited excerpt from the transcript or listen to the full episode. Tune in to Good One every Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Overcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hello, I am Vulture senior editor Jesse Fox, and welcome to Seth Rogen: A Holiday Spectacular.
I’m so sorry, it’s just me! I couldn’t be more sorry. I’m sorry! I was prepared for there to be no one here, and it was like, I was gonna get a real-time reality check as to how many people actually gave a shit to only see me, and this is thrilling. Thank you. If nothing else, my ego is intact tonight. My wife would have never fucking heard the end of it, so she thanks you.
So we’ll be talking about your new animated show Santa Inc., the holidays, comedy, your career. But first, since Sarah’s not here, I thought it might be fun to talk about her in a way that would have been awkward if she was here.
Yeah! Let’s talk about her as though she’s dead! The only right thing to do in this situation, I think.
Do you remember when you first became a fan of hers?
Yeah, of course! And she does hate to talk about this in front of her, but I remember when she was on Seinfeld as one of Jerry’s girlfriends. And then I was a big Larry Sanders Show fan — she played a writer on The Larry Sanders Show, and she was hilarious. Then I started to become a fan of her stand-up. I moved to L.A. when I was 16, and I was on this show Freaks and Geeks. And at the time, there was this guy named Jonathan Kasdan, who was a writer on the show, and he was like 17 or 18. He was roommates with Jason Schwartzman, and I went to a party at their house one night and I was 17 years old maybe, and fucking Sarah Silverman was there, smoking weed! And I smoked weed with her, and it was one of those things where I’m like, I’m smoking weed with fucking Sarah Silverman right now! This is crazy! And then, yeah, I got to know her over the years, and I got to work with her in Take This Waltz, which is a great film if you’ve never seen it. If only one of you has seen The Larry Sanders Show, none of you have seen Take This Waltz. I guarantee that.
And now you are in an HBO Max animated show together called Santa Inc.
So how did this project come to you? What did you think when you heard of it?
It came to us through a very good friend of mine named Ali Rushfield, who I met when I was 18 years old. We were both writers on the TV show Undeclared, which we made in 2000, 2001? It premiered one week after 9/11 — maybe why you haven’t heard of it. But we stayed very good friends, and Ali went on to create the show Shrill, and she’s done a lot of other amazing things over the years, and she pitched us this show a few years ago and I thought it was hilarious, and so did Sarah, and we went around and pitched it to the places in Hollywood, and HBO Max bought it and that’s what happened! And then people spent an insanely large amount of time doing stop-motion animation and animating filthy jokes in a warehouse in the Valley, like literally one frame at a time. And they went quite mad.
Can you explain a little bit about the world of the show? What is its take on Santa?
I mean, it’s a show about Christmas made almost exclusively by Jewish people. [Laughs.] It’s about how the North Pole is a corporate entity, and Santa is the CEO of it, and it’s an Amazon-esque corporation and every year we’re really gearing up towards Christmas. And there’s only been white men who have been Santa Claus, and Candy Smalls wants to be the first non-white male Santa Claus, and I want to be viewed as progressive as Santa, and so I consider taking her under my wing and championing her as that, mostly so I look good.
Did you have any inspiration for this sort of version of self-congratulatory allyship?
Ali did! [Laughs.] I know her well, and it’s something you encounter a lot. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it many times throughout my life. We’ve talked a lot about bosses she’s had over the years who have hired her, and then clearly the motivation behind it is meant to reflect on them more than anything. That’s a thing that happens a lot in Hollywood — people hire people because they think it’ll make them look good, and then they don’t listen to those people ever, which we reflect well on this show.
I was wondering, Inside the Actors Studio style, if I could talk to Santa for a moment.
Oh God, what? No! I remember being happy when James Lipton died so I would never have to do that.
So I want to talk about Christmas and such, but first, what was your relationship to Santa growing up, specifically? What did you think of him?
I thought it was pretty silly. I thought it was funny. As a Jewish kid, it’s funny when you know that a thing isn’t real and everyone thinks it is real. And what’s funny is, I would say to my sister like, “These stupid fucks! They think Santa Claus is real! How dumb are these motherfuckers! Little do they know, only the Tooth Fairy is real, and everything else is fucking bullshit!” Literally, that was a conversation we would have, and I probably ruined Christmas for a lot of kids. Like, I thought it was funny to tell kids that there was no Santa Claus.
Do you remember the reaction you got any of those times?
I told John Daley on Freaks and Geeks there was no Santa Claus — and with all due respect, he should have known!
How old was he?
He was like 12 or 13 or some shit like that. And I did tell him there was no Santa Claus at an age where I was appalled that he did not know there was no Santa.
How does that conversation even come up?
I think he referred to Santa Claus in a way that wasn’t fictional, in a way that it was real. I think I was like, “There’s no Santa Claus,” and I think I saw in his face like, Yeah, of course there’s no Santa Claus. And I was like, Oh no! I just destroyed his life. Yeah, real bummer. He grew up to be a great guy. A very successful writer-director.
It was important at that point that you had to be like, “Welcome to the real world, this is Hollywood.”
Yeah! I mean, I don’t know, are there parents here who have told their kids that Santa Claus is a thing knowing one day that they will tell them it’s not a thing? Yeah? Good. Is it going away? Do people still believe it? Does the average kid still believe it? Do they?
I’ve been told people are now saying you shouldn’t tell them Santa Claus is real because it —
It’s a weird thing to teach a kid a thing just to lie to them! Like, specifically to tell them one day it’s not real. That is a weird practice, I think. [Laughs.]
I think from what I understand, it’s fun to watch them slowly figure it out.
Great! I don’t have children; I should make that very clear as well. But if you bring your kid near me, I will tell them there is no Santa Claus.
That’ll be your new role.
And if it’s time, bring your kid near me and I’ll do it so you don’t have to!
That’s like, a very specific type of —
A very specific thing. It’s a service I will provide as a Jewish man.
What was your relationship to Christmas? Did you guys do anything?
No. I had no relationship to Christmas. I’m from a big city, Vancouver, so there was Christmas stuff around; the malls had Christmas stuff in them. I never had a Christmas tree. I had very few friends who were Christians, and so I never even was at a house with a Christmas tree very often. I remember one time I was once I got into high school, because I went to a Jewish elementary school and then I got into high school and I made some non-Jewish friends. I remember the first time I saw a Christmas tree I thought, They really do this shit! It was wild. I was like, Oh, they do it! They do the lights like from the movies! I think everything I know about Christmas is from Home Alone.
Did you have a favorite Christmas movie other than Home Alone?
Home Alone is the best Christmas movie. Is Die Hard? I don’t know, there’s that whole debate. But Home Alone is a great Christmas movie. Home Alone’s one of the movies that made me want to make movies, I think, because I was Macaulay Culkin’s age when it came out and it was like an action movie where a kid is the star. And it for sure was heavily inspirational on me, which is a weird thing to say, but it’s very true.
Have you revisited it, and does it still feel like This is still what I want to do?
Yes, 100 percent. I love Home Alone. Physical comedy is great. It’s a hilarious movie. The scream Daniel Stern does when the spider is on his mouth is one of the funniest moments ever in a movie. Daniel Stern — Jewish.
All interviewers are just going to name Jewish people —
We could just name Jews. They’re making lists, you know!
Do you have a favorite Christmas song?
The Run-D.M.C. one, “Christmas in Hollis,” is one of the better ones, I think. I don’t know, no! I have almost no relationship to Christmas, honestly, except a cinematic one. My entire relationship to Christmas is through movies about Christmas. And my wife is from a small town in Florida and she hates Christmas because she’s a Jew from central Florida, so she really had a non-Jewish ideology shoved down her throat a lot.
So you never did like, “We’re gonna see a movie on Christmas”?
I did what Jewish people do on Christmas, which is I would eat Chinese food and go see a movie.
That’s what the people wanted to know.
So now we’re gonna keep on talking about other holidays.
Okay! Make sure they know what we’re gonna talk about all the time.
We’re gonna transition to another holiday —
We will reframe it.
Or as we call your Thanksgiving, Canadian Thanksgiving.
What was your family’s relationship to holidays generally? Did you celebrate Canadian or just Thanksgiving?
No, my family did not celebrate Canadian Thanksgiving. They told me Jews didn’t celebrate Thanksgiving, which I only found out later was not true. Pretty recently, actually, I found out! But they said in Canada, “Jews don’t celebrate Thanksgiving,” and I didn’t question it. But Canada’s Thanksgiving is a much more optional holiday, I would say.
So then how did you find out? You were in here and then somebody was like, “What are you doing for Thanksgiving?”
Yeah, eventually I asked a fellow Jewish Canadian, “Did you celebrate Thanksgiving?” and they were like, “Yes, your parents lied to you.” And I asked my parents eventually, “Why did you lie to me?” And they said “We just didn’t want to deal with a whole other holiday.”
In Funny People, a movie you co-starred in, one of my favorite scenes is when the roommates do a Thanksgiving, and Adam Sandler gives this big speech about how this is gonna be your number-one Thanksgiving for the rest of your life, you’ll always remember this. Did you have a Thanksgiving or a holiday like that that you celebrated with friends when you first lived in L.A.?
Yeah. Well, me and my wife actually were like the first people to get a house out of our group of friends, and so every year we’d have all our friends over for Thanksgiving and we’d cook a ton. We’d have up to 50 people.
Yeah, we’d have up to 50 people. We’d bring in tables. It was a lovely thing. Thanksgiving is the best holiday, because all you do is eat. And Jewish holidays are all about death and pain, so it’s nice to have a holiday where you’re not dwelling on that. Even though Thanksgiving is about that, they don’t talk about that, so it’s nice. They bury it underneath the food.
And you would do the cooking, or you guys together would do it?
Yeah, me and my wife, Lauren, would cook.
Any favorite turkey?
Well I don’t like turkey.
Your favorite holiday and you Grinch everyone.
Exactly. Turkey is gross — objectively! There’s a reason you don’t go to any restaurant and turkey is on the menu. You’re not going to fine dining and they’re like, “Try the turkey!” There’s never turkey because it’s gross! There’s squab, there’s hens, there’s chickens. You got people eating fucking goats! Never turkey! Turkey is the last thing you ever want to be fucking eating. They had to make a whole holiday to sell turkey! It’s fucking gross! It’s dry, it’s bad — so I make ribs on Thanksgiving because they’re delicious, and turkey is objectively a bad-tasting food, which is why you eat it once a year.
What kind of ribs?
Smoked ribs. I have a smoker. Baby-back ribs. They’re delicious.
Do you have any suggestions for how you would — this is a transition, to keep you guys posted, a transition into the weed conversation — how would you suggest, if someone was going to smoke through a Thanksgiving meal, do you have suggestions of how one would do that?
It depends on how much weed you smoke. I remember that was a big moment, when I told my friends, “You can smoke weed at Thanksgiving.” And I’ve had a lot of instances where, again, you’ve got to be careful. My father-in-law smoked weed recently and I almost killed him. So you’ve got to be careful.
Wait, how did that happen?
He had a hit of weed and we went to Morton’s Steakhouse, and he passed out in the middle of the fucking restaurant! It was a real bummer. Huge bummer, after having one hit. Then I caught him and I plopped him at a table of people at the head of like a 12-person table, and the person who had been there was at the bathroom, and I plopped him there unconscious, and he was like this — [imitates limp person] — propped up, and at that moment the food arrived! And the waiters put a dish in front of him, and everyone at the table was like, “Okay! Seth Rogen” — because they recognized me — “just plopped a corpse at our table, and they’re serving it creamed spinach!” Everyone was looking, and eventually my father-in-law came to. I brought him back to sit down because he didn’t want to leave; he felt bad. And then at the table he started taking his pants off, and I was like, “We gotta go! We gotta go!” I carried him out, and I have not gone back to Morton’s since.
I was also at a wedding, a friend’s wedding, and I didn’t do it, but the bride’s father smoked weed and passed out on the dance floor, and everyone assumed it was me. So I had like 200 motherfuckers being like “Seth, what did you do? You almost killed this man!” And I was like, “For the first time in my life, I did not smoke weed with this person!” But I did give weed to the person who did smoke it with him, so, be careful. Weed is strong these days.
So on Thanksgiving, you gotta get a sense of everyone’s tolerance.
Get a sense of their tolerance. One hit and then tell them to come back in ten or 15 minutes, see how they do, give them a helmet or something if they seem … if they’re older.
Joints seem to be your way of consuming. Don’t you feel like it would be more efficient if people had tinctures or something like that?
If they got me high the same way, I would do it. Now we’re being very specific. No, doing tinctures does not make you feel — or does not make me feel — the same way as smoking joints does, and so I smoke joints.
Are you high now? Did you smoke before this?
I smoke weed all the fucking time. There is no time the answer to “Are you high?” is no unless I’m in Singapore or a country where they’ll execute you for smoking weed. And I don’t go to those places anymore, literally. I smoke weed all day, every day.
Stoner comedy, weed comedy, traditionally is seen as the lowest of brow type comedy.
Tell me about it! I know!
How do you feel about it? Do you feel like you have a desire to elevate it? Do you like it as what it is?
Comedy in general is the least respected art form, period. So I am accepting of that, as someone who has dedicated their life to it. Comedy’s never gonna win awards; they don’t even get nominated for them. Every top-ten list of movies, one like fancy fucking comedy maybe gets nominated, but that movie’s not funny. Like, Bad Trip was by far the funniest movie of last year, and that’s like a marvel. Borat 2 was also amazing. But like, they are not taken seriously as films. And I’ve made non-comedic films and participated in ones that are taken very seriously, and so I’ve had a real apples-to-oranges experience where it’s like, Oh, this is what it’s like when they take your movie seriously? You get to go to festivals? You get to go to Telluride, Colorado, and do a Q&A in a park? Wow! I didn’t know that fucking happened until I’d been making movies for a decade because they weren’t treated in a way that non-comedic films are. So the truth is, yeah, I make the least respected genre in the least respected art form on the planet Earth, but I get paid very well, so I’m okay with that! No, it’s fine. It’s honestly fine. But it is true; it is objectively true. There are TikTok stars who are more respected than comedians, honestly.
So, Hanukkah! How do you spell Hanukkah?
Chet, alef, nun … I don’t know, with an H? Yeah.
Cool, that’s it.
I don’t. How often are you —
I don’t know. You Google “Hanukkah,” there’s different ways of spelling it. I didn’t know if in Canada it’s more of a C. Anyway, I imagine literally everyone here is Jewish, but in case —
You’re all Jewish now. Sorry. That water you’ve been drinking? That’s Jew Water! I spit in every bottle. You’re Jewish now. That’s how it works! You drink the saliva of a Jew, you’re Jewish.
But quickly, for those who aren’t, can you explain —
What “Jew” is?
Can you explain what the story of Hanukkah is?
I don’t know. There’s the Maccabees? Does someone know the story of Hanukkah? Help me out. There’s oil, eight nights. I imagine like most Jewish holidays, it starts with “Everyone’s trying to kill the Jews.” The Jews were, I believe, under siege in one of their ancient walled cities that they were constantly getting annihilated from. This is not the tale we’re taught about as children where they all chose to commit suicide. That’s another one. That’s Masada, a great Jewish fairy tale! They all chose suicide over capture. This one is we were under siege, and we used oil to light our lamps, and there was only enough oil for one day, but the oil lasted eight days — and then did they all get killed?
Did you celebrate it as a holiday or did you celebrate it like, Oh, this is our Christmas?
No, my parents were socialists so they were not big gift-givers in general. That’s the downside to having socialist parents: You don’t get a lot of gifts. Can anyone actually tell me when Hanukkah starts this year? The 26th, 28th? It starts early! That’s what’s funny about Jews’ relationship to Hanukkah, is that we don’t even know when it is. They change when it is every year! They keep it moving for us. That’s how fucked up, that’s how much they don’t respect our holidays! Don’t even keep them on the same date: Figure it out, Jew!
Do you do gifts? No gifts?
Sometimes, kind of. I think some Jewish people start to feel silly emulating the traditions of Christmas on Hanukkah, especially as they get older and they realize this was all an attempt by Jews to get a little bit of that Christmas action, because it is an inorganic holiday to be giving gifts around. Nothing about that story I just told is like, “And then you get a gift!”
So I was gonna ask if you make people gifts as a way of transitioning to talking about pottery, but now I feel like you probably don’t.
I do, actually! I do make people pottery as presents, yes. Look under your chairs! No, I’m joking. Don’t. That would literally take me four years.
Why do you think people are so fascinated by your potting?
You know, I’ve thought about that a lot, and I do not have a great answer. I think they probably think it’s weird that I’m doing it. I think that’s a big part of it. There’s probably a story, like, “Why is he doing this?” I’m not the first actor to have, like, a side project! Jared Leto’s fucking touring in some band half the year, you know what I mean? George Bush makes those terrible paintings, you know? So I think other prominent people have done this kind of thing. I don’t know. I’m getting better. I spend a lot of time doing it. I love doing it. I make my own glazes, I have a whole studio in my garage.
How did you land on this aesthetic?
I wanted to make something that was incredibly psychedelic, outwardly psychedelic. I’m a big fan of this guy Ken Price, who’s a ceramicist, and I was reading about how he makes his work. He’s dead, so he’s not doing it anymore, and so I started — I did a similar technique to what he does, which is sanding away layers of under-glaze. This is so boring, I’m sorry, but that’s how I make my vases, yeah! Nothing funny about it.
When you’re creating them, obviously it’s so different than writing movies and directing, but does it feel like it comes from the same creative well, or is it something that was untapped?
Honestly, when I was a kid, if you asked me what I wanted to do when I was 10 or 11, I would have said I wanted to be an artist, and the problem is I can’t draw or paint. I literally just can’t. My wife’s a very good drawer. Evan [Goldberg], my writing partner, is a great drawer, and I maxed out at a point. I’ve always had hobbies — I did photography for a long time, I had a big gardening phase, things like that. And then ceramics was a thing that, like, it was one of the first tactical art forms that I could actually make the thing I wanted to make. In my head, I would have a thing I wanted to draw, and my hand just wouldn’t fucking do it, you know what I mean? But I can now make a vase that’s any shape I want, I can color it any way I want, I can texture it any way I want. I can have a thing in my head and I can make it, which is very gratifying, and the first time I’ve ever been able to make something physically tangible, which is nice.
Do you feel like there’s something in the pursuit of this that is a response to making an inherently ephemeral art form, a desire to make things that are tactile, that last, that you can hold?
Not so much the last part. Ultimately nothing lasts. Sorry, I hate to break it to you guys — this will all be gone. It’s more something … an object, honestly. I think that was more something that I was drawn to trying to make: a physical creative piece of art, you know? It takes so much less [time]. It’s nice to make something that doesn’t take a huge amount of time. Like, movies take fucking years — years and years and years! This show, we’ve been working on for three or four years or something like that. And also, it’s nice to be able to have output that is not such a huge time investment and that isn’t critiqued as harshly as our other work as well, so yeah.
Has it made you think differently, or more deeply, about beauty and just making things that are beautiful, and what that means, and how you would apply that to what your goals are with your other work?
Yeah. I think in comedy especially, people do not emphasize — especially the school of comedy that I came up in — visual beauty was not something that was spoken about a ton on our sets, you know? And I do think there are some technical reasons for it, literally, because of how we shoot; it is just literally harder to frame specifically. Once you have two cameras, it’s harder to make things look a specific way than it is with one camera, you know? But it’s also something I never thought. I was like, Can I do that? Can I be one of those people that makes something that is visually beautiful? And in our films, it was never a conversation. We wanted them to look real, we wanted them to be grounded, we wanted them to have certain palettes in certain places to reflect emotions. But “beautiful’ was never really a word that came up when we were talking about how we wanted our stuff to look, and now it’s a word that comes up more, you know?
In what way?
It’s just something that I think I’ve become much more aware of. I never put thought into, Oh, orange and green and purple are a color combination I really like, you know? But now, especially as we make more animated things and you can control the world more, this show is very beautiful, Santa Inc., and the lights are all real and interactive because of the stop-motion. The way it hits in the lens is a very colorful, pretty show. So yeah, it’s nice to do that.
You’ve been working with Evan Goldberg for how many years now? Twenty?
Way more than that. Since we were 13, and now we’re 40, so 27 years.
How do you work together literally? Like, do you share screens? Do you trade a laptop back and forth?
Final Draft just actually made this thing for collaboration which is amazing if you’re a writer with a partner. It seems so fucking obvious! For the first time, you can both write on the same document, like a Google Doc but with a screenplay. I’ve had Final Draft for 27 fucking years! This is the first time you can do it, but whatever, better late than never, and that’s how we write. We sit together, side by side, physically in a room. He was in Vancouver for a year during COVID, but now he’s back and we sit together, and we both have the script on our computer, and we both write at the same time.
Have you guys ever gone to couples therapy?
No. We don’t need it. We have a very good relationship and a very good partnership. I think throughout our childhood, we had to learn how to deal with being in a team and having a partner. And I think we’re both in very good marriages as a result of it, and we don’t take it for granted. We know a lot of teams that have broken up over the years, and I don’t think we will because our brains formed around one another in many ways. He’s also Jewish.
You know, on Santa Inc., Santa spends a lot of time thinking about who his successor is and what that would mean. You’re about the age Judd [Apatow] was when he brought you in as a producer on The 40-Year-Old Virgin. How has your definition of professional success evolved to be less centered around your own stardom, your own self?
You say that as though it hasn’t. [Laughs.] I mean, yeah, as a producer, a large part of what we do is bring other people’s work to life with our company, or at least try to. And yeah, I definitely look back on how I was very overtly mentored. It was not like, “Hang out and you’ll pick stuff up.” It was like, Garry Shandling sitting me down and being like, “Here’s how you write a comedy scene. Here’s why Larry Sanders Show was funny. Here’s how we tracked the emotions of the episodes.” And Judd explaining to me like, “Here’s how Jim Brooks would explain to us on The Critic how a scene should be written,” and I got to know Jim Brooks.
I’m very lucky in that I’m almost 40 now, but I got to really interact with a lot of these … [Adam] McKay, and guys like that, and they were all very nice to me. I was very young. But I was very overtly taught. I try to explain things. I don’t want to fucking just run my mouth off, but if people seem genuinely curious, I try to take the time to explain what it is we’re doing and why we’re doing it. I try to be someone that people feel they can ask questions to about the process on the things we’re making. And again, I’ve been very lucky in that a lot of people that really are amazing have shared wisdom with me over the years, and I try to do things like this and impart bits of it. No, this is self-serving, don’t get me wrong. But yeah, I very much try to find people that I genuinely think are funny and hire them and bring their work to life.
I was listening to your new podcast, which I like quite a bit, and I want to ask you about something you said on one of the episodes, which is I believe on the set of 40-Year-Old Virgin, Paul Rudd helped teach you how to be a famous person? And again, you’re about the age Paul was then. What have you learned about being famous that would have been useful to hear then?
That in and of itself is a skillset that can be developed, and not everyone who’s a very great actor is good at being a famous person. And not everybody who’s great at being a famous person is talented in any way! We have a lot of those people in our culture as well. They are two very different skillsets, and some people have both of them.
One of the most defining stories when I learned a lot about myself, especially how I deal with fans and things like that as a famous person — this is hilarious — I was once on the Sony lot, and a walking tour was going around. I was walking across it and our offices were there, and Will Smith was there. I maybe met him once or twice, but we start talking to each other and we’re standing there, just in the middle of the lot, having a conversation. And a tour group comes around the corner and clearly just sees me and Will Smith standing there right in front of them. Me and Will Smith look at each other, and he’s like, “You know what we gotta do!” and I’m like, “Sure do!” And I turned around and ran away as he went up to the tour group and took pictures with everybody in the tour group. I remember looking back and being like, What is he doing? And then I was like, OH! That’s why he’s the most famous man on the planet and I’m a Jew who does stoner comedies! That was a long time ago.
But yeah, again, I’ve been around … some people are just terrible; they’re very uncomfortable people. Some of my close friends are terrible with their fame and do things constantly where it’s like, What are you doing? But I’ve been around people — Adam Sandler is one of the all-time great-at-being-famous people, and I got to work with him over ten years ago and I got to see Oh, this is how some people deal with it really well and are very gracious about it. And other people will take a fan and turn them into someone who wants to murder you! I’ve been left in the wake of those people, and fans of yours will tell you to your face, “Oh, I’ve met your friend and he was an asshole.” And I’m like, “I know! They suck at this! It’s hard!”
It’s who you think.
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